Fantasy Saloon Pussy Good, Nevada

https://www.axios.com/2022/12/03/supreme-court-colorado-wedding-website-discrimination

The case of an evangelical Christian designer from Colorado who refuses to build websites for same-sex couples lands in the U.S. Supreme Court Monday for oral arguments.

Why it matters: For the second time in five years, a First Amendment case from Colorado pits religious freedom against the right of LGBTQ people to access services without discrimination, and puts the court in the middle of the nation's culture wars.

What to know: Littleton's Lorie Smith, 38, objects to Colorado's Anti-Discrimination Act, saying it violates her free speech rights because it forces her to publish messages she opposes, in this case celebrating same-sex marriage on a wedding website. She preemptively sued the state in 2019.

The law bans businesses open to the public from denying goods or services based on race, gender, sexual orientation, religion and other characteristics.
What she's saying: "Colorado is compelling and censoring my speech and forcing me to design and create custom artwork that celebrates messages that go against my deeply held beliefs," Smith told Reuters in a recent interview. "My faith is at the core of who I am."

And how far is it from this to "No Jews served, No Blacks served", etc.?

• Justice Sotomayor asks if same-sex wedding website ban might affect interracial unions. "How about people who don't believe in interracial marriage or people who don't believe disabled people should be married?"


• Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson wanted to know if a photographer, who wanted to take photos of kids with Santa, could refuse to photograph any Black, Asian, or Hispanic children.


• Justice Samuel Alito, a member of the 6-3 conservative majority on the court, suggested that drawing the line so narrowly could force a Black Santa to take pictures with a child dressed as a member of the Ku Klux Klan.

Link

Similar case. US Supreme Court backs Colorado baker's gay wedding cake snub. Link

I personally remember due to racial prejudice, minority travelers driving on highways could not stay at roadside motels or eat in restaurants. Even business proprietors that would be happy to offer service to minorities could not due to social/community pressure.  It took legislation to rectify this situation.

I see these cases differently. Here we have an individual entrepreneur, taking a business risk to use their personal creativity to provide a customized service.   As I recall the baker said if a gay couple wanted to buy a standard wedding cake off the shelf, he would sell it to them. He did not want to be tasked to use his personal creativity to design one.

Question I would have is why one would want to hire someone to do a creative work if their heart and soul was not in it. Also, I don't know, but wonder if people are pushing the issue for political purposes.

Seems to me these businesses could make a clear statement in their advertising, "We are dedicated to creating a special experience for couples wanting a traditional marriage in accordance with Christian values."  "We believe we our values will aid in giving what you are seeking in expressing your values."

Quote from: HighStepper on Dec 05, 2022, 01:36 PMQuestion I would have is why one would want to hire someone to do a creative work if their heart and soul was not in it. Also, I don't know, but wonder if people are pushing the issue for political purposes.

Seems to me these businesses could make a clear statement in their advertising, "We are dedicated to creating a special experience for couples wanting a traditional marriage in accordance with Christian values."  "We believe we our values will aid in giving what you are seeking in expressing your values."

I wouldn't. But by the same token just because I don't want service from them doesn't mean it's ok to handwave off discrimination. Period. How about not selling a house because you don't want Blacks to bring down the property value?  How about not selling Jews food or water from your bodega because you think the Jewish conspiracy is taking over?  How about a teacher who doesn't want to teach a gay kid? How about the MAGA conservative who doesn't want to hire Mexicans because it's his sincere belief that Trump is right and they are here to steal jobs from God fearing Americans?



"Oh, that'll never happen!" You say, but people are saying the same now about this case...

I heard a very long story on the radio today about this case.  I was confused before the story and I still am.
Gay people wanting a website (which is a service by the way) are not what is called a "protected class" so where is the discrimination?
Can't the website designer just make up a lie like "I'm too busy" to deny services to gays?
HS had an excellent suggestion and you see things like that all the time. 
On top of that, where is the right for a business to deny services (within boundaries of current laws)?
Discrimination in housing, employment, etc. are a different situation because those are critical for survival.
Having a website is not even close.  Not sure why the Supreme Court even heard this case. 
If I was on the court I would have dismissed that case and moved on to more important things.......

I used to run a small business.  I denied providing my services to people I knew to be assholes and would annoy me.  It was not worth it to deal with them.  So was that asshole discrimination? Seems like every type has a grievance now and when they are denied they immediately cry discrimination even when it's not. Sometimes people that get told "no" spend too much time whining about their rejection instead of moving on and finding a situation that is more satisfactory to them....just a few observations from my world.

Quote from: Blkfyre on Dec 05, 2022, 03:28 PMI wouldn't. But by the same token just because I don't want service from them doesn't mean it's ok to handwave off discrimination. Period. How about not selling a house because you don't want Blacks to bring down the property value?  How about not selling Jews food or water from your bodega because you think the Jewish conspiracy is taking over?  How about a teacher who doesn't want to teach a gay kid? How about the MAGA conservative who doesn't want to hire Mexicans because it's his sincere belief that Trump is right and they are here to steal jobs from God fearing Americans?

IMHO, the examples you cite are not equivalent to the issues under discussion in this thread.
The 1964 Civil Rights Act clearly addresses the examples of discrimination you presented. Further the 1964 Civil Rights Act was held to be constitutional by the Supreme Court.

To paraphrase black activist of the 60's we don't care if you don't like us, you just had better not discriminate against us. So an individual county clerk can be antigay marriage in their beliefs, however they must still issue a marriage license to a gay couple. If it is so abhorrent to them then they need to resign their position and go elsewhere for employment. 

Mahala Jackson a famous American gospel sold over 22 million records and performing in front of integrated and secular audiences in concert halls around the world. Throughout her career Mahala Jackson faced intense pressure to record secular music. She turned down high paying opportunities as it went against her religious beliefs.

So think of a professional singer that sings at weddings and bar mitzvahs. If they are contracted to sing standard /typical songs that would be fine. They also have been known to compose songs specific to the occasion being personalized to the participants. Because of their beliefs they could not in good conscious create a song relative to gay marriage. Again if they cannot put their heart and soul in to it, the results would not do justice to the task. We can control a person's behavior and actions, but we cannot control what is in their hearts and mind.

     I'll say it again in a different way.  Yes gays are a protected class but only with regard to certain things like employment, housing, medical care, etc.  Website services are not one of the items gays (or any other protected class) are currently protected against discrimination by and I seriously doubt they ever would be.  Why would they?  Website design is not so important you can't live without it.  Health, having a place to live, and a job are. 
     What's next? People under 18 bitching they can't vote or drink alcohol because they are being discriminated against based on age?  The whole "I'm being discriminated against" whine is being taken too far in some cases....IMO.  When I travel I hate double occupancy policies like on cruises because single travelers typically get charged double.  I make a joke and call that "singles discrimination" but it's not.  While marital status is protected against discrimination, again it is only for specific things (employment, etc.) not everything and certainly with regard to paying for a cruise. Should I sue Carnival and say I can't go on their cruise because I can't afford their double occupancy rates?  No, I can chose not to go, find a travel partner or travel on land. My life will not be drastically affected if I can't go on a cruise. Cruise lines can have that policy if they want to....well at least for now.....

Quote from: dogwalker on Dec 06, 2022, 01:07 AMI'll say it again in a different way.  Yes gays are a protected class but only with regard to certain things like employment, housing, medical care, etc.  Website services are not one of the items gays (or any other protected class) are currently protected against discrimination....

These cases are from Colorado and have to do with challenging Colorado law.
Coloradans are entitled to the full and equal enjoyment of all goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations offered to the public, regardless of protected class.
https://ccrd.colorado.gov/discrimination

Prohibited Practices in Places of Public Accommodation C.R.S. § 24-34-601
Places of public accommodation are generally defined as any place of business offering goods, services, facilities, or accommodations to the public. Places of public accommodation include educational institutions and public buildings.

It would be a discriminatory action for a place of public accommodation, directly or indirectly, to refuse, withhold from, or deny to an individual or a group the full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, of the public accommodation based on that person or groups' protected class. Places of public accommodation are also prohibited from publishing, circulating, issuing, displaying, posting, or mailing any discriminatory advertisement.
To ensure that persons with disability are allowed the opportunity for the full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, or accommodations being offered, a place of public accommodation may need to make reasonable accommodations in its policies, procedures, or practices and/or ensure accessibility.
Places of public accommodation are also prohibited from retaliating against any person who has engaged in a protected activity - e.g., making a complaint of discrimination or requesting a reasonable accommodation.

Protected Classes in Places of Public Accommodation
•    Disability (a mental or physical impairment which substantially limits a major life activity)
•    Race (includes hair texture, hair type, or a protective hairstyle commonly or historically associated with race, such as braids, locs, twists, tight coils or curls, cornrows, Bantu knots, Afros, and headwraps).
•    Creed
•    Color
•    Sex
•    Sexual Orientation
•    Gender Identity
•    Gender Expression
•    Marital Status
•    National Origin
•    Ancestry
Persons who have engaged in protected activity (such as making a complaint of discrimination, or requesting a reasonable accommodation) are protected from retaliation for doing so.

Quote from: dogwalker on Dec 06, 2022, 01:07 AM...When I travel I hate double occupancy policies like on cruises because single travelers typically get charged double.  I make a joke and call that "singles discrimination" but it's not.  While marital status is protected against discrimination, again it is only for specific things (employment, etc.) not everything and certainly with regard to paying for a cruise...

I knew a single man that took a single woman on a cruise double occupancy status with the understanding that he would pay all the expenses, but they were free to have fun on their own.

I could see doing this with a woman (possible just happen to be a provider) that wanted the experience of a cruise vacation. Me personally I would go for a woman that was bisexual. You would have to work out signals if either of you wanted the cabin for a non three-way hook up.

You could share the formal meals at the assigned table. Although, could make for interesting conversation with the other assigned table guest, lol. Or just do the many buffets.

Site seeing activities could be done together or separately with no pressure.

Quote from: dogwalker on Dec 05, 2022, 06:40 PMSeems like every type has a grievance now and when they are denied they immediately cry discrimination even when it's not. Sometimes people that get told "no" spend too much time whining about their rejection instead of moving on and finding a situation that is more satisfactory to them.

As I understand this situation (and I haven't paid much attention to it) a website designer sued the state pre-emptively. I assume that means there was not yet an actual dispute in play. Instead, a person who would be subject to the new law initiated a lawsuit to test the law's constitutionality.

Quote from: bats on Dec 06, 2022, 01:01 PMAs I understand this situation (and I haven't paid much attention to it) a website designer sued the state pre-emptively. I assume that means there was not yet an actual dispute in play. Instead, a person who would be subject to the new law initiated a lawsuit to test the law's constitutionality.

Yes well said. I missed that little nuance when first hearing about the story.

She claims the law violates her deeply held religious views and free-speech rights. She wants to expand her business to create wedding websites but only to tell the stories of brides and grooms "through God's lens." she wants to be able to tell same-sex couples that she will not create such platforms for them.

"God fearing" people scare the shit out of me. I pray to God, to please protect me from your followers that do things in your name.