Fantasy Saloon Pussy Good, Nevada

I see "Free the Palestinians" signs held by demonstrators and wonder WTF are they talking about. Ironically freedom for the Palestinians from the oppressive rule of Hamas will come when Hamas is destroyed.

The chant students are yelling "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" means there will be a Palestinian state extending from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea. This territory includes the State of Israel. So, they are calling for the extinction of Israel an ethnic cleansing of the Jews.
 
I remember back to Yasser Arafat who gave lip service to peace between Palestine and Israel. Arafat was the leader of the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO) whose original aim was to destroy Israel, drive out the Jews and enable Palestinian refugees to return home.

2005 Israel withdrew all military installations and removed over 9000 Israeli citizens living in the Gaza Strip, giving it over to the Palestinians. In 2006 Hamas won election and took control of Gaza Strip. The Hamas charter asserts that Israel does not have a right to exist and death to the "infidel" Jews. Hamas soon after launched thousands of missiles fired from the Gaza Strip onto southern Israeli towns terrorizing the lives of hundreds of thousands of Israeli citizens.

Over the years there have been continuous attacks on Israel by Hamas with Israeli retaliation. Then there is the call for a cease fire. Which means Hamas rebuilds to attack Israel again.

The October 7th attack on Israeli civilian citizens resulted in unspeakable horrors. Beheadings, rapes, mutilations, torture, and hostage taking.

Hamas uses its citizens as human shields. Hamas purposely embeds military assets in schools, mosques, hospitals, etc.  The Jews profess sanctity of life while Hamas profess the sanctity of death as a martyr in the service of Allah.

While destroying Hamas is a legitimate military goal, the mass death of Palestinians will generate a hatred of Jews that will be passed down to their children generation unto generation. Just like the hatred of Jews was passed down from their fathers, grandfathers generation from generation for thousands of years, dating back to Isaac and Ismail the sons of Abraham.

Whoa.  A lot to unpack and comment on.
I was in both Israel and Palestine a year ago. My opinions on the region changed a lot since before my trip.

"Free the Palestinians" probably refers to the fact that the West Bank is an Israeli-controlled territory, militarily occupied by Israel and some Palestinians want that area to be an independent country.  Yes some (that I'd say are more radical) want Israel to be included in a new Palestine.   This is because before 1947 Palestine did include Israel and Palestinians considered that as their holy land before Israel was created out of that, lots of Palestinians were kicked out of that area to make Israel, and so on.  Lots of overlapping sites for various religions they argue about.  People now want to create a certain narrative based on recent events but there is a long and complicated history going back 4,000 years (yes HS! Isaac and Ismail....it's crazy!) that impacts today.

PLO.....true at the time....rather outdated now.

Israel giving up Gaza to Hamas.  Part of the Oslo accords at the time.  Looking back, maybe not a good idea.

About the Hamas attacks on Israel it's important to distinguish Hamas from a Palestinian citizen in Gaza.  The military and government arm of Hamas is 1% of all Gaza citizens and 10% of Gaza support Hamas. Nowhere near a majority but the power of minorities can rule. 

As far as what you see on TV in the US.....very biased as usual.  Don't believe everything you're fed.  Go to the Middle East and learn the reality if you don't want to be brainwashed.

Many seem to advocate for the "two state" solution.  That would mean leaving Israel as-is and making the West Bank an independent country.  At this point there almost would need to be a 3 state solution for Gaza  since the government of Hamas and the West Bank (Fatah) do not get along.

My proposal which few have talked about and most would consider way beyond nuts but I have my own reasons for thinking it could be better than a 2 state solution is:

1. "Unification": make the west bank officially part of Israel instead of a territory.  I'm not sure what to do about Gaza.
2. Israel funds the cost of reunification and that means real efforts to bring Palestinians in the West bank to the same educational, standard of living, health care level, etc which they currently lack.

My proposal is based on the right thing to do based on what I observed when I was there.
The problem is both sides HATE each other.
Therefore in my opinion they deserve each other meaning these wars may go on until one or the other is wiped out....or a third party takes over.  No country lasts forever.

Quote from: dogwalker on Nov 01, 2023, 09:09 PMThe problem is both sides HATE each other.

The problem is that the extremists on each side hate the other side. And it is the extremists who currently have control. 

 Obviously Hamas is more extreme than the Israeli hard right, but the point is that the extremists have to get out of the way and let representatives of the ~15 million combined Palestinians and Israelis in the territory who just want to live their lives figure out if they can co-exist peacefully.

Seems like a tall order.

@bats  Yeh that's exactly the vibe I got when I was there. That's why, sadly, I have very little faith there will be a long lasting, peaceful solution anytime soon.  There has to be a willingness to compromise and neither (extreme, in power) side seems to have (or maybe even want) that.

It's a classic territorial dispute at various levels but with more at stake since both geographical and very high level religious disputes are at stake. 

You are exactly right IMO about average people just wanting to live their lives.  I heard that from everyone in both Israel and the West Bank that I talked to about their issues. They have many day to day challenges that are way more important and have little to do with political ideology. I've found that is mostly true worldwide. 

I do not have a sense of whether Hamas is more radical than the Israeli right. Both are rather extreme in their own way. American tourists are not allowed in Gaza so I did not go there even though I was interested.  I will say I was quite surprised at how ultra-nationalistic (and guarded and militaristic) Israel in general is.  It was a bit unexpected and shocking to me.  (The many 18-20 year old, cute girls carrying machine guns was a bit HOT though.) I get it at some level.  They wanted a country, then they got their country, and now they are proud of it and it seems challenging to hold on to and so on BUT IMO they take it to an over-protective extreme and that does not help resolve the current issues. 

That area has been fought over for 3200 years: first Egyptian, then Babylonian, then Roman, then Byzantine, then Muslim, then Crusaders, then Ottoman

One thing for sure is Biden's poll numbers are dropping, down 11% since the Hamas attack. He's losing support from lefties and Muslim Americans.

You are correct that the world over most people want to have the essentials of life for their families and live in peace.

The U.S.-brokered Abraham Accords, aimed at winning broader recognition of Israel in the Arab world, paved the way for trade deals and military cooperation with Bahrain, Morocco, Sudan and the United Arab Emirates starting in 2020. Their autocratic rulers — as well as American and Israeli officials — continue to frame the deals as a step toward a "new Middle East" in which closer ties could foster peace and prosperity.Link

The protest demonstrations over the Israel-Hamas war held across the Middle East seriously threatens the move toward peace in the Middle East. Hamas wanted to spark a regional war against Israel with the speculation of Iran's encouragement. So, the killing of thousands of Palestinians from Israeli military attacks serves the goals of Hamas.

If and when Hamas is destroyed what will the new governance of Gaza look like?

Nobody wants Palestinian refugees, Jordan refuses to take in Palestinians and Egypt only accepted 400 the other day after they had been vetted. These countries always say they care about Palestinians but when asked to take them in they say "No", most of the members of the UN are hypocrites.

Side note: Pakistan is deporting all illegals, maybe we should do the same

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/06/pakistan-says-it-will-deport-17m-afghans-and-all-other-immigrants

Quote from: Romanticlover on Nov 02, 2023, 04:23 PMNobody wants Palestinian refugees, Jordan refuses to take in Palestinians and Egypt only accepted 400 the other day after they had been vetted. These countries always say they care about Palestinians but when asked to take them in they say "No", most of the members of the UN are hypocrites.

I heard the comment that the surrounding countries do not want Palestinians because Palestinians are problems and cause chaos.

Starting with the end of the 1948 Israeli War of Independence, the politics in the Arab world began to center on Israel and the "Palestinian problem," the solution to which was to be achieved by eliminating Israel. In order to succeed in that mission, the Arab "refugees" were kept in camps, with explicit instructions from the Arab League that they be kept there and not absorbed into other Arab countries. Link

Blinken travelled to Israel to ask Netanyahu for a pause in the fighting but Netanyahu said "not until the hostages are released". Blinken is calling for more aid for the Palestinians. Even Hillary Clinton said it would be foolish to pause and allow Hamas to regroup.

I think the Biden admin is doing a flip-flop on policy after his ratings dropped 11% since the Hamas attack.

Quote from: Romanticlover on Nov 03, 2023, 09:17 AMBlinken travelled to Israel to ask Netanyahu for a pause in the fighting but Netanyahu said "not until the hostages are released". Blinken is calling for more aid for the Palestinians. Even Hillary Clinton said it would be foolish to pause and allow Hamas to regroup.

I think the Biden admin is doing a flip-flop on policy after his ratings dropped 11% since the Hamas attack.

The entanglements in the Vietnam "War" caused LBJ (President Johnson) to not seek reelection. I believe it was about 7 months before the election. Entanglements in Middle East wars could seriously damage a Biden reelection. Biden has accomplished a lot however, he should seriously consider passing the torch.

Quote from: dogwalker on Nov 01, 2023, 09:09 PMMany seem to advocate for the "two state" solution.  That would mean leaving Israel as-is and making the West Bank an independent country.  At this point there almost would need to be a 3 state solution for Gaza  since the government of Hamas and the West Bank (Fatah) do not get along.

My proposal which few have talked about and most would consider way beyond nuts but I have my own reasons for thinking it could be better than a 2 state solution is:

1. "Unification": make the west bank officially part of Israel instead of a territory.  I'm not sure what to do about Gaza.
2. Israel funds the cost of reunification and that means real efforts to bring Palestinians in the West bank to the same educational, standard of living, health care level, etc which they currently lack.

My proposal is based on the right thing to do based on what I observed when I was there.
The problem is both sides HATE each other.
Therefore in my opinion they deserve each other meaning these wars may go on until one or the other is wiped out....or a third party takes over.  No country lasts forever.

Opportunist during a war. West Bank settlers have increased acts of violence against the Palestinians living there. The settlers are exploiting the attention on Gaza to be able to take over more Palestinian land. While these settlers do not represent the position of the bulk of Israelis, it undermines the potential of a Palestinian Authority being a more reasonable governing body for not just the West Bank, but Gaza as well. Given their past history, I'm not sure that is a good solution.

Quote from: HighStepper on Nov 03, 2023, 12:36 PMEntanglements in Middle East wars could seriously damage a Biden reelection. Biden has accomplished a lot however, he should seriously consider passing the torch.

I agree, at this point I would vote for Newsom over Biden. Newsom vetoed a bunch of lefty legislation which gained my respect. There's no way Biden will be able to serve another 4 years, he needs to retire.

@HS. Definitely.  The settlers are very unlikely to leave on their own.  If the West Bank becomes an independent country, will they kick the Jewish settlers out?  History indicates they will and that could create another war.  Or would the settlers leave then?  One of many reasons I don't think the 2 state "solution" is much of a solution.  Go unification!  lol.

The biggest problem is both Jews and Muslims claim the same land and religious areas to each be theirs and only theirs.  So many act as if the solution has to be "A or B".  Why not "A and B"? Share children! Give them both those disputed areas.  That works for most of the issues except maybe one.  Jews claim the third temple MUST be exactly where the Al-Aqsa mosque is.  Not an easy solution to that.  Maybe build the temple underground or even above the mosque? (Some Jews want the mosque totally torn down and then construct only a temple in that area.)  I know my suggestion sounds silly but there again each can mostly have what they want.

Pro-Palestinian protestors shut down the California Democrat convention on Saturday. The protestors said they won't be voting for Democrats next November, we can only hope so.

https://www.kcra.com/article/pro-palestine-demonstrators-interrupt-california-democratic-convention-in-sacramento/45882783

"They shut it down because a lot of protesters kind of went in and they weren't able to check them. I can understand that," said Fatima Iqbal-Zubair, chair of the progressive caucus. "That's what happens sometimes when you have civil disobedience."

She said a "disruption has to happen in a democracy for something drastic to change."

Sort of like what happened on Jan 6th.

Quote from: Romanticlover on Nov 19, 2023, 04:42 PM"They shut it down because a lot of protesters kind of went in and they weren't able to check them. I can understand that," said Fatima Iqbal-Zubair, chair of the progressive caucus. "That's what happens sometimes when you have civil disobedience."

She said a "disruption has to happen in a democracy for something drastic to change."

Sort of like what happened on Jan 6th.

Comparing this to January 6th is ridiculous on many levels. JFC