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Quote from: Hobby on May 03, 2022, 12:46 PMPerhaps the best way to settle the abortion issue is to stop arguing about the right to abortion and make performing abortions illegal with a stiff penalty. Mandatory minimum of 10 years in prison, 10,000 dollars fine, and loss of medical license. Physicians oath... do no harm. Time to ensure they don't do any harm...

This is the kind of thinking that proves that, in a more reasonable world, men wouldn't have the power to dictate to women what they must do with their bodies.

Quote from: Romanticlover on May 03, 2022, 01:00 PMAs to the comment that the FBI is investigating the leak, that is false. I did some reading and found out there is no Federal law stating stealing SCOTUS paperwork is illegal. It's the responsibility of the SCOTUS Marshall to investigate conduct of people who work and visit the building, sort of like the Sergeant at Arms in Congress.

FBI no, Marshalls of the Court, yes: https://www.cnbc.com/2022/05/03/supreme-court-says-leaked-abortion-draft-is-authentic-roberts-orders-investigation-into-leak.html

Quote from: bats on May 03, 2022, 01:58 PMThis is the kind of thinking that proves that, in a more reasonable world, men wouldn't have the power to dictate to women what they must do with their bodies.

What they do with their bodies is up to them... If they want to pour drugs into their bodies that is up to them. If they want to put a gun to their head and end it all that is up to them.  But it is not just their body at issue in this discussion, there is another life involved that has no voice in its own future.  So stop deflecting what a person does with their own body when in fact their choice affects the life of another... Tell me how would it feel if you had no say in your future it was entirely up to someone else if you lived or die?

Can we start by asking for a definition of Life.  When does Life start?  Do we consider life starts once there is a cellular structure?  Does that cellular structure need to be viable on its own?  What is the obligation of one cellular structure toward another?  Does one cellular structure have the right to separate itself from another cellular structure?  Do we distinguish separation of cellular structures on a physical basis from an emotional or financial basis? 

If a man walks away from the mother of his unborn child, is that as serious an act of abortion as a medical procedure? 

Why do we have so much law enforcement attention on abortion and so little on failure of fathers to provide financial, emotional, and child care support? 

I respect any religion that wants to evangelically advocate for life starting at any point in time they want.  But why do we use law enforcement to act on behalf of one religion over the beliefs of another religion? 

We know now and have for some time known at the moment of conception a new individual DNA is created. All life has a beginning and an end. Once life has been created does it really matter at what stage of development is at to be considered life?  Every one of us went through the stages of life and we will all suffer the conclusion at the end of our life, is death. Did we not exist at 1 day, 1 week, 1 month? Simply because you don't know the individual before they were born does not mean that person does not exist. Did anyone at the stages of your life have the right to end it before you were born? I say no!

Quote from: Hobby on May 03, 2022, 03:09 PMDid anyone at the stages of your life have the right to end it before you were born? I say no!

That's fine. Believe what you want. But the government shouldn't have any say over what someone else believes, especially when it involves bodily autonomy. And don't give me that nonsense about how there's another life involved. As long as the fetus is in the woman's uterus, it's part of her body.

Quote from: Hobby on May 03, 2022, 03:09 PMWe know now and have for some time known at the moment of conception a new individual DNA is created. All life has a beginning and an end. Once life has been created does it really matter at what stage of development is at to be considered life?  Every one of us went through the stages of life and we will all suffer the conclusion at the end of our life, is death. Did we not exist at 1 day, 1 week, 1 month? Simply because you don't know the individual before they were born does not mean that person does not exist. Did anyone at the stages of your life have the right to end it before you were born? I say no!

What you do as a hobbyist is patently illegal. Period. You believe you have the right to do as you want regardless of what someone else's morals dictate. The same religion behind preventing abortion says that your fornicating with women not your wife is illegal, and immoral, spreads disease and causes moral decay, and it doesn't matter what you think, it should be stopped or you be jailed/fined for it.

But when it comes down to it, you believe that YOUR right to choose how you live your life, your decision to choose is more important than their religion or what their morals say is or isn't right.

So why is it you feel you can/should impose your morals on others as you don't want them to impose theirs on you?

So now you make a personal attack on me about my morals and want to tell me what I believe to boot! This is no longer a discussion and has become personal. Put words in my mouth as to my morals and drag the hobby into this as well.  What a weak place you come from! Pathetic is all I can say! I have to stop now before I say something I might regret later...

The left follows the science, right?  The science says a fetal heartbeat can be detected at 5 to 6 weeks after conception. Does this mean a fetus is a person if a heartbeat is detected? I would strongly suspect that a heartbeat would be a definite indication of life, I don't know what else it would be. I would definitely prohibit abortion when a heartbeat is detected.

Quote from: Hobby on May 03, 2022, 12:46 PMPerhaps the best way to settle the abortion issue is to stop arguing about the right to abortion and make performing abortions illegal with a stiff penalty. Mandatory minimum of 10 years in prison, 10,000 dollars fine, and loss of medical license. Physicians oath... do no harm. Time to ensure they don't do any harm...

I apologize if I offended you but I am not sure why you are upset when you said the above. How am I saying something that you didn't say? And I compared the hobby as something that some think should be shut down because THEY feel it's wrong regardless of what the people participating in it feel, you know, like people who want to shut down abortion. It was a comparison of actions of those pushing to shut down a woman's right to choose to have an abortion, not an indictment of you personally.

What about vaccination the right not to have one?  The left wants everyone to be vaccinated and say the hell to personal choice when it comes to who might be infected.  When it comes to abortion they are all for freedom of personal choice even though someone is going to die from that choice.  Talk about fucking hypocrites.  I have no use for Democrats who can't take a stand.  Either you are for the right to personal choice or you are not...

Quote from: Hobby on May 03, 2022, 06:42 PMWhat about vaccination the right not to have one?  The left wants everyone to be vaccinated and say the hell to personal choice when it comes to who might be infected.  When it comes to abortion they are all for freedom of personal choice even though someone is going to die from that choice.  Talk about fucking hypocrites.  I have no use for Democrats who can't take a stand.  Either you are for the right to personal choice or you are not...

Funny, I know people who still aren't vaccinated. Nobody is threatening to throw them in jail or fine them or have them have to be responsible for the next 18 years of their lives for something they didn't have to be...

Quote from: Danno on May 03, 2022, 09:28 AMFBI will find out who leaked it.

HAHAHA! I assume that was a joke.
Late to the party, this is my two cents. This goes to how I describe my politics, I am so far to the right! I am on the left...This is none of the government's business. Get out of my bedroom, get out of my house!

Not really related...the American Revolution, the Boston Tea Party was over a 3% tax. My tax rate today is over 20%. I don't want you to know what I have in my storage unit...

Quote from: Hobby on May 03, 2022, 12:46 PMPerhaps the best way to settle the abortion issue is to stop arguing about the right to abortion and make performing abortions illegal with a stiff penalty. Mandatory minimum of 10 years in prison, 10,000 dollars fine, and loss of medical license. Physicians oath... do no harm. Time to ensure they don't do any harm...

OMG!

Quote from: Hobby on May 03, 2022, 05:24 PMSo now you make a personal attack on me about my morals and want to tell me what I believe to boot! This is no longer a discussion and has become personal. Put words in my mouth as to my morals and drag the hobby into this as well.  What a weak place you come from! Pathetic is all I can say! I have to stop now before I say something I might regret later...

Too late!